The full quote from The anarchist's Tool Chest by Christopher Schwarz* is: "Most importantly, never try to outfox the dead when it comes to design. It's like a zombie movie; it almost never works out for the living."
The quote was about building tool chests but it has been my guide for almost everything I've done in woodworking for almost as long as I can remember. If you can figure out how the dead did it that is likely the best way to do the job. Be it tool chests, workbenches, boxes, chairs, whatever you are trying to design or build.
What brought this to mind were some of the comments, not on this blog but a forum where I posted a thread on building Moravian workbenches.
One was: "I'm a touch surprised that someone went to the trouble of building a bench with slanted legs and then mounted the leg vise dead vertical..." Then goes on to explain why a slanted leg vise was better. With no understanding of design decisions or even in reality the relative holding power of slanted vs. vertical chops. I'm not into intertubes pissing matches so I declined to answer but there were two logical questions the first being; how many workbenches have you build and/or used? The second; have you used a slanted leg vise and/or a vertical leg vise?
Another when on to explain to me why my placement and size of the long stretchers was totally wrong and that the only way to hold small pieces for planning was to pinch the work between a dog and a vise. Needless to say I left that one setting there like a turd in the punch bowl as well.
Bottom line the net allows everyone to be an expert and even better can be a great hoot. Just stay out of pissing matches and don't take it personal.
ken
*Page 365 The Anarchist's Tool Chest. Copyright 2011.
another one: "Do not cast your pearls among swine"
ReplyDeleteI think the reason I read blogs and largely stay off the forums is I only read blogs that appeal to me.
For someone trying to make up their mind on a design the internet forums seem like the last place to find answers.
Steve,
DeleteSo true.
ken
Ken,
ReplyDeleteI gave up on those sites for that reason. Too much chaff, too little wheat.
As for design, I love to try to come up with original designs even though I am aware that there is likely a better historical design. It teaches you a lot and helps you appreciate why the historical designs are best. Sometimes I come up with something that is quite good. Often I fail but learn a lot.
Trying to design helps me to appreciate the genius of some historical designs. The Moravian workbench is one such.
As for the vise, I suppose you could say the same of me since I prefer no bench vise at all. In my defense, this stems from my preference for the Moxon vise on a Nicholson bench and these are historical designs too. There can be a variety of great historical designs.
Andy,
DeleteLike you I've worked benches with no vise. For about 90% of the stuff I do, working without the help of a vise is is easier and quicker. With that other 10% a face vise can help but isn't necessary especially if you are working on a bench with an apron and a Moxon. On the other hand I really like this wood screw "leg" vise on the Moravian.
ken
Hi Ken
ReplyDeleteI'm most impressed with both your portable and now your main Moravian bench. You did a great job on them, it was very nice of your wife to help with the lifting too.
I agree with your post here, I've tried to improve on a few existing designs, it never once worked out for me. I should have known better, the men who made them were pro craftsman that spent their life dedicated to their trade.
I've seen a few photos of the slanted leg vise but never understood the logic behind it. I at least like the looks of the vertical leg better.
I had no plans of building another bench but your main bench looks so functional I'm considering making one for myself.
Thanks for all the updates and photos on your bench progress and I'm looking forward to your upcoming shaving horse build.
Steve
Steve,
DeleteThanks. Yeah, MsBubba stays out of the shop most times but I think she could see the look in my eye saying even without help I'm moving that sucker and may never walk again if I do :-).
In theory and I expect if tested the slanted leg vise could apply more pressure along the center of effort on a vertically clamped board. In practice to gain the small increase of pressure you give up some of the ability to use the vise screw as a stop on that same long vertical board. I'll give up a little holding power to have a stop.
Go for it. It is an easy reasonably quick build and you end up with a great workbench. When I build my first one it was just because it looked like I could break it down to fit in the side bins of the motorhome and it might be more functional than a Workmate. After working on it on the first trip I thought, wow this bench is rock solid. From there I ended up making another and working on it more than the main shop bench which in turn pushed the making of a shop sized bench. That's my story anyway.
My guess the new shavehorse is a few months away, MsBubba is giving me the side eye on any talk of projects not on her list.
ken
My first thought was the commenters had no idea that this was not your first bench. Then I read the punch bowl line and let it die it there.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
DeleteI do not think it would have made a difference. I love when folks state there is only one way to do something especially when their one way may be the least effective.
Glad your hole in the back is better.
ken
Well ah ya know Nahmy...it's a known fact that the use of the angled leg vise dates back to the ancient Mesopotamians.
ReplyDeleteCliff Clavin
Bill,
DeleteMaybe the zombies are coming for me :-).
ken
Tell me about the slanted leg vise, if you don't mind! I'm about to start a portable Moravian bench ,and was thinking about doing an angled vise just so I didn't have to make the extra parts for the straight one. I have never used any sort of leg vise - my current (first and only) bench has a pipe clamp moxon.
ReplyDeleteJeremy,
DeleteThe biggest problem with a slanted leg vise on the Moravian bench is the number and size of the mortises in the front leg. Will has built a bench with a slanted leg vise and overcame that problem by making a wider leg on the vise side. In my mind the other problem with a slanted leg vise is when clamping a vertical board I clamp so the board can use the vise screw as a stop to keep it from turning in the vise, it doesn't take as much pressure to hold that way. With a slanted vise the center of effort and the screw would likely be too far apart to use the screw as a stop.
Don't be afraid of using/making a vise backer board. It is easy to make and also will allow easy replacement if for some reason it isn't working where if the vise is mounted to the leg it is not an easy repair/replacement.
Good luck with your build, if you do not have Will's video you should buy it.
ken
Thanks! Something to think about. I was planning to use a metal screw, so the hole in the leg will be smaller than a 2.5" wood screw. Also I might not want the workpiece to touch the metal screw in case it marks the piece with grease... I'll have to keep thinking about it.
DeleteI've used both metal and wood screws in leg vises. I like wood screws.
Deleteken
Yeah, well fuck those guys. Oops sorry for cussing on your blog Ken. Bench looks great, have fun using it.
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteNo problem, I do the same often and maybe should do it more. BTW, the Creek has fallen on hard times. Most like yourself who are interesting to read have left and I'm not sure many of the ones left are making anything other than noise on the keyboard.
Thanks, it needs a couple or three glue spills and a few chisel marks to look right but I expect that will come in time. I was playing with your coffin smoother on the new bench this morning. Not really doing anything, just making shavings. Mostly because I just wanted to make shavings but my excuse was I wanted to test the bench and vise install. What a sweet little plane.
Take care,
ken
I hear you loud and clear (Heard Understood And Acknowledged, HUAA)
ReplyDeleteI used to be on Wood central and the creek, but I drop off a long time ago, could not stand the BS. Since discovering blogs and writing one, I like this format a lot better. But I supposed Its only a matter of time before the Zombies catch up with us...argggg Gotta go for my meds :-)
Bob, who put up the Christmas tree today, mostly for the grand kids
Bob,
DeleteIt is funny but kinda sad at the same time. But whatever there is no need to engage. Of course it would be different If they had a clue, as my beloved Mother would say "Bless their soul".
ken
Bob,
DeleteI should have mentioned we put up our Solstice Saguaro the other day, I'll have to post a photo.
ken
Speaking about vise screws, they differ in the number of turn to advance 1".
ReplyDeleteOrdinary metal ones: about 3 to 5 turns
Benchcrafted : (double threaded) 2 turns if I understand correctly
Lake Erie wooden screws : 2 turns and only 1 turn on the new double threaded ones.
Hovarter: sliding quick setting + a fraction of a turn (not really a "screw").
Of course the price is not the same.
Sylvain
Thanks Sylvain,
ReplyDeleteLake Erie came out with the larger double threaded screw a couple of weeks after I received the slower screw. I thought briefly about changing to the new one but decided to hold off for several reasons. I guess the first was at two turns an inch the old vise screw is pretty fast. The second and probably the most important was the wait time for the new screw and the vise design allows an easy retrofit because the vise is mounted with a vise backer instead of through the leg. If I ever just had to have the extra speed it would be no biggie.
Good info,
ken
I’m about your age and agree completely. I followed the post you referred to and I’m content and happy not to feel the need to respond to such posts. When younger I’m sure I wouldn’t have resisted posting a snarky response.
ReplyDelete